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Author Topic: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?  (Read 1591 times)

Wildaisy

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What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« on: September 28, 2011, 08:33:45 PM »
I don't think we know at this point. 

What we do know is that WPI did not use the VIP Dx-type test on the BWG study because the results were not reproducible.  We know this from a tweet sent from the Ottawa conference saying Dr. Mikovits said so:

http://www.mecfsforums.com/index.php/topic,9589.0.html
 
  Quote from: bullybeef on September 23, 2011, 12:11:27 PM
Quote
Mikovits: VIPdx lab will NOT continue XMRV-testing because it haven't been shown to be reproducible in BloodWorkingGroup
 


What we do know is that WPI couldn't reproduce it's own results on the BWG, and the VIP Dx test was derived from the research lab, though the labs are separate.

Flex said:

 Quote from: flex on September 23, 2011, 06:06:48 PM 

Quote
Yes. They are positive for the Lombardi HGRV but its not "XMRV" if you describe xmrv as a synthetic clone.
 
 The only thing that is different is the name. A word game introduced by Coffin and chums.
 
 Technically they are saying, "lombardi didn't find our synthetic clone which we call XMRV"
 
 This allows them to hide the fact that WPI have found a new Human gamma retrovirus.
 
 It should probably be called PMRV.
 
 Hence VIP cant technically do XMRV tests. I dont see why they cant do HGRV tests with exactly the same procedure, perhaps they will when the lies and spin from Coffin and chums settles down.


 
In my opinion, Flex's analysis MAY be correct or it MAY NOT be correct.  At this point, we simply do not know. Discovering exactly what a positive test result on a VIP Dx XMRV result means will take some time and a lot of money.

Flex
Quote
I dont see why they cant do HGRV tests with exactly the same procedure


The reason they can't continue to use the same test, no matter what they call it, is because WPI was unable to reproduce the results of the test for the BWG; i.e., WPI was unable to validate the VIP Dx test.

One point I want to emphasize is that it is VIP Dx's test results that are in question here, not the research results upon which WPI relied in its research publications.  The problem with the VIP tests would not affect the results of tests used in research at WPI because WPI researchers used several tests on each sample, and they used additional tests to the ones used by VIP Dx.   

Dr. Judy Mikovits was not part of VIP Dx, and she is not part of UNEVX either, as far as I know.  Whatever problems VIP Dx has, they are theirs and not WPI'S.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 12:35:11 AM by Wildaisy »
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Tango

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2011, 08:35:46 PM »
A positive tests means you have a HGRV.
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Wildaisy

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2011, 08:39:35 PM »
Quote
A positive tests means you have a HGRV.

That is your opinion, V99, and as such, I respect it.  However, we have no proof.
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Tango

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2011, 08:42:49 PM »
There is scientific proof in the published papers.
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Stuart

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2011, 01:08:49 AM »
WPI didn't use it's own best methods, due to the limits of the time for 'blood safety tests' the design of the tests precluded the very methods used to most consistently find what is in blood. 

The long culture and feeding times are 'out of bounds' for blood safety test as they need rapid turn around in the blood supply world.

This means two things were not shown: 1) the blood supply was NOT proved safe, only that the limited methods in use for the blood supply testing on a very small sample of 15 was not successful.  2) It was not shown that HGRVs are not in the blood, they used a test specifically for the clone, the same as the other 0/0 studies.  The BWG results did not nullify the WPI tests.

Lastly, low to no counts in blood doesn't mean no infection in viral reservoir tissues.
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Wildaisy

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2011, 01:42:09 AM »
V99:
Quote
There is scientific proof in the published papers.

This is not true.  Neither WPI nor anyone else has published papers which discuss the commercial XMRV tests sold by VIP Dx.  One cannot equate the testing WPI did in its research to the commercial tests sold by VIP Dx because in the research papers WPI used other tests in addition to the type of tests sold by VIP Dx. 

Stuart, that is not what Dr. Mikovits said at the Ottawa conference.  She said that WPI did not use the VIP Dx-type tests because the WPI could not reproduce it's own results on the BWG, and the VIP Dx test was derived from the research lab, though the labs are separate.

See:
Quote
Mikovits: VIPdx lab will NOT continue XMRV-testing because it haven't been shown to be reproducible in BloodWorkingGroup
 
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Stuart

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2011, 02:27:16 AM »
I don't read my comment in conflict with the tweet by Dr. Mikovits.
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Wildaisy

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2011, 03:25:19 AM »
Stuart, the point is, we do not know what an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx means.  The tests used by VIP Dx could not be validated, so the results do not mean anything.

On re-reading, it appears your prior comment was about the results of the BWG study.  That is not the subject of this thread.  The subject of this thread is the VIP Dx XMRV tests.
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bullybeef

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2011, 07:33:18 AM »
I guess what we need to understand is which control did VIPdx use?
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Tango

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2011, 10:48:41 AM »
Quote from: Wildaisy on September 29, 2011, 01:42:09 AM
V99:
This is not true.  Neither WPI nor anyone else has published papers which discuss the commercial XMRV tests sold by VIP Dx.  One cannot equate the testing WPI did in its research to the commercial tests sold by VIP Dx because in the research papers WPI used other tests in addition to the type of tests sold by VIP Dx. 

Stuart, that is not what Dr. Mikovits said at the Ottawa conference.  She said that WPI did not use the VIP Dx-type tests because the WPI could not reproduce it's own results on the BWG, and the VIP Dx test was derived from the research lab, though the labs are separate.

See:


The WPI PCR was the only assay capable of detecting a HGRV in the blood working group study, because all the others were based on VP62.

The WPI assay used here was not the one used by VIP-Dx which is based on activated cultured PMBCs. The serology test is also based on cultured PMBCs

These are the assays that detected HGRVs in Lombardi, thus the VIP-Dx tests are scientifically validated and at the moment are the only ones that are.


There is a reproducability issue with nested RT-PCR because of the development of secondary structures in the target RNA

The problem is not false positives but false negatives.

You can of course email Mikovits. 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 11:14:10 AM by V99 »
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Wildaisy

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2011, 02:04:30 PM »
V99 and Jace, did you perhaps miss this tweet from Ottawa quoted earlier in this thread:

Quote
Mikovits: VIPdx lab will NOT continue XMRV-testing because it haven't been shown to be reproducible in BloodWorkingGroup
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Tango

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2011, 02:05:07 PM »
Its a tweet WD.


The WPI PCR was the only assay capable of detecting a HGRV in the blood working group study, because all the others were based on VP62.

The WPI assay used here was not the one used by VIP-Dx which is based on activated cultured PMBCs. The serology test is also based on cultured PMBCs

These are the assays that detected HGRVs in Lombardi, thus the VIP-Dx tests are scientifically validated and at the moment are the only ones that are.


There is a reproducability issue with nested RT-PCR because of the development of secondary structures in the target RNA

The problem is not false positives but false negatives.

You can of course email Mikovits.
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Wildaisy

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2011, 02:45:55 PM »
What I stated is correct.  VIP Dx/UNEVX cannot ethically continue to sell the same diagnostic test for XMRV/HGRV because WPI was unable to reproduce the test results to validate the test.  The VIP Dx test was based on work done in the WPI research lab, and now the WPI has been unable to validate the results of that test.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 02:54:17 PM by Wildaisy »
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Tango

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2011, 02:47:10 PM »
Quote from: Wildaisy on September 29, 2011, 02:45:55 PM
What I stated is correct.  VIP Dx cannot ethically continue to sell the same diagnostic test for XMRV/HGRV because WPI was unable to reproduce the test results to validate the test.  The VIP Dx test was based on work done in the WPI research lab, and now the WPI has been unable to validate the results of that test.

Not correct WD.

These are the assays that detected HGRVs in Lombardi, thus the VIP-Dx tests are scientifically validated and at the moment are the only ones that are.

The assays in the BWG are not those used in Lombardi or by VIP-Dx.
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"I suspect there have been a number of conspiracies that never were described or leaked out. But I suspect none of the magnitude and sweep of Watergate." Woodward

"I would favor any name that does not impose (or give the appearance of imposing) taxonomic preconceptions on the nomenclature." Coffin

Flopsy

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Re: What does an XMRV positive test result from VIP Dx mean?
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2011, 03:30:48 PM »
But the tweet wasn't direct from Dr Mikovits was it (I tried to trace it back)? We don't have direct statement from the WPI / VIPdx/ UNEVX.

I contacted the Unevx and confirmed that they are not accepting any further bloods for XMRV/HGRV testing.

Why I don't know. It may be a precuationary measure from them. What it means we can only guess.

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