Author Topic: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency  (Read 10370 times)

Karin

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2011, 04:03:23 AM »
Hi Karin -- so glad to hear of your remarkable improvement.  Thank you so much for reporting.

Look what I found (link)

I am trying to get the full paper.  All I have now is the abstract and the info given here:

So they were using pretty high doses, like you.  Much higher than anyone would use normally.  I wonder if the doses were too high for some of these people and they might have done even better had they found their sweet spots, as you have done.


This is amazing, thank you so much for this info!

YOU GUYS HAVE TO TRY FOLINIC TOO (of course with your doctor supervision, that goes without saying)!!!!!

But in any case, for anyone tempted to try, make sure you have plenty of B12 available prior to starting, in order to avoid the folate trap phenomenon (http://www.dach-liga-homocystein.org/EN/Fachinfo/folsaeure/falle.htm). I do shots of methylcobalamin every three days, I might even do every day soon. Also, make sure to dose folinic three times daily at the beginning, to reduce side effects (to reduce fluctuations in available folate levels), and to start with a 'low' dose. And if there really was a cerebral folate deficiency, expect things to be rough at the beginning as folate levels start rising, since cysteine and glutathione will also start raising in the brain and there'll be a lot of detox going on, even the immune system starting to wake up and do its job at clearing viruses and such (that's just a conjecture, not sure if true). I would think working with a doctor who really understands these things (methylation cycle and such) is a requirement especially for more severely affected patients. At the begining, I really wished leucovorin would have been available in time-release form. Now I think my levels have built up enough that it does not matter much anymore if I miss a dose, I don't see these big ups and downs I was seeing at the beginning.

I remember at the beginning I was getting such a high from a dose, so much well being, that I was craving my next dose like a junkie, LOL. I felt like the Aliens in Mars Attacks, floating above the ground, with energy flowing through my body. Those feelings are gone now, I guess I got used to feeling better...

Marco

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2011, 05:58:40 AM »
I am trying to get the full paper.  All I have now is the abstract and the info given here:


Here's a scanned pdf version :

http://www.ncf-net.org/pdf/UckunCFSCD19.pdf

Not the most detailed paper.  The cohort are not well characterised and they use subjective outcome measures.

But hey; if its good enough for the CBT/GET crowd?

Plus the reported improvement rate is impressive rather than 'modest'.

subtr4ct

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2011, 01:19:56 PM »
Thanks very much Marco!  I am adding to the research library

ETA:  I found more interesting info, but I think this topic is directly relevant to ME/CFS and is not getting appropriate attention here in "Other Health News".  I started another thread: http://www.mecfsforums.com/index.php/topic,8175.new.html#new
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 07:01:15 PM by subtr4ct »
Disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor.  This post is not medical advice.  Consult your physician before taking any action.

subtr4ct

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Evidence suggesting Cerebral Folate Deficiency in ME/CFS
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2011, 06:59:06 PM »
Three items of evidence:

[1]: Prevelance of cerebral folate deficiency in other neuro-immune illness (e.g., autism; a review article is here)

[2]: Very positive clinical response to high-dose L-methylfolate (Deplin) or folinic acid (Leukovorin) enjoyed by Dr. Deckoff-Jones, Karin, and patients studied in Lundell, et al. (2006)

[3]: Indirect evidence in cerebrospinal fluid of ME/CFS patients. The cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) of ME/CFS sufferers has been the subject of limited investigation, and such research has largely focused on cytokine and protein content.  I was able to find a single paper on the CSF in ME/CFS which evaluated folate-related and methionine cycle-related amino acids (Regland, et al., 1997).  They unfortunately did not measure CSF levels of folate.  They instead focused on B12 and homocysteine, finding normal and elevated levels, respectively, in patients' CSF.  Patients' serum levels of folate, B12, and homocysteine were, on average, normal.  They additionally found normal CSF levels of cystathionine.

Homocysteine can be transsulferated to form cytathionine or transmethylated to form methionine.  These reactions occur not just in ordinary cells, but in CNS cells as well (ref).  That ME/CFS patients have high CSF homocysteine, but normal CSF cystathionine indicates that the transsulferation pathway is operating correctly.  The high CSF homocysteine must then be due to defective transmethylation in the CNS.  This reaction depends on B12, folate, and the catalyzing enzyme methionine synthase.  That Regland et al found normal CSF levels of B12 suggests a deficiency in the CNS of either folate (5MTHF) or methionine synthase.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 07:46:00 PM by subtr4ct »
Disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor.  This post is not medical advice.  Consult your physician before taking any action.

subtr4ct

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Re: Evidence suggesting Cerebral Folate Deficiency in ME/CFS
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2011, 08:00:58 PM »
From Herrmann and Obeid (2007), page 1615:
Quote
CSF folate status is a major determinant of CFS tHcy (38).  This is supported by the finding that antifolate treatment (methotrexate) lowered CSF concentrations of folate and increased tHcy in serial CSF samples (39)

Seems to further support the idea that Regland et al. very nearly discovered cerebral folate deficiency in ME/CFS.  If only they had tested the CSF for folate...
Disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor.  This post is not medical advice.  Consult your physician before taking any action.

Karin

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2011, 10:31:45 PM »
By the way, I have now been off Zoloft completely for almost two weeks. No withdrawal symptoms, sleep issues or mood swings at all, except for one week of annoying 'brain zaps', which are typical when withdrawing from SSRIs. Even those are gone now.

I have never before been able to completely wean off SRIs in such a short time (less than a week). I used to take 2 or 3 months at least, and even so, I would have a hard time. So the folinic acid must really have built up my neurotransmitters enough so that I don't need anymore to have SRIs artificially raise my serotonin levels by preventing the reuptake fo whatever very low levels of serotonin I was producing before...

All amazing stuff. I just hope it will last...

liquid sky

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2011, 11:42:57 PM »
So glad to hear of your improvement! Are you staying on 18 mg. daily? Do you take it all at once or split the dose? One more question, sorry. How much B-12 do you take and is it IM?

I have had some help from OTC metafolin, but it seemed to be less useful, as time passed. I see where it helps PwASD also.

Karin

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2011, 12:46:19 AM »
So glad to hear of your improvement! Are you staying on 18 mg. daily? Do you take it all at once or split the dose? One more question, sorry. How much B-12 do you take and is it IM?

I have had some help from OTC metafolin, but it seemed to be less useful, as time passed. I see where it helps PwASD also.

Thanks! Yes, so far I am still on 18 mg, I take 12 mg in the morning and 6 mg in the afternoon. That is, I split a 25 mg tablet into 4 pieces with a pill cutter, and I take 2 quarters in the morning and one quarter in the afternoon. I might try two tweak the dose a little up or down at a later date, to see if my sweet spot is still the same now that I am off Zoloft.

For B12, I do subcutaneous injections in the buttock fat every three days (easy and painless). The form is methylcobalamin, 3800 mcg per injection. Doing it in the buttock fat is supposed to allow for a slow leaching of the B12 into the circulation over several days, to provide a steady amount of available B12. The methylated form of B12 is supposed to be more bioavailable, bypassing any potential methylation problems.

However, I might try to increase the B12 shot frequency to every other day, or even every day, to see if it helps any, or even maybe it would allow me to increase the folinic dose. I am pretty happy with things so far, but I am still planning to play a bit with B12 and folinic doses to see if I can get even better results. Maybe my recurrence of folate deficiency symptoms I saw with 50 mg of Leucovorin daily, was a case of folate trap, and if yes, increasing B12 shot frequency should help a lot.

But for now, I think I still need to keep everything stable for a few weeks to make sure my system is completely stabilized off Zoloft (after 5 years on it), and make sure I don't get any recurrence of mental symptoms.

floydguy

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2011, 12:56:48 AM »
Karin,

Thanks so much for this information.  Please continue to post on this topic.  I am very interested in what you have to say.

Best,

Andrew

slayadragon

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2011, 03:47:30 AM »
I'm interested in this topic too.

I've been using Metafolin for about three and a half years now.  My insurance pays for Deplin, but so far I'm just taking 1-2 tablets a week (which is equal to maybe 1-2 FolaPro tablets a day).  I also take a variety of things that seem related, including methyl B12 shots (10 mg, 1-2x per week), P-5-P, zinc, lithium, phos choline, and some other things.

I decided to take it primarily for methylation, and it's been effective for that.  Certainly I detox more on it anyway.

It's my understanding that Metafolin stays in the bloodstream for a long time -- meaning weeks.  I don't feel like there's any difference if I take a pill once a week, vs. take smaller amounts every day.

But I've found that I've been able to discontinue Lamictal, which is an anticonvulsant that serves as a mood stabilizer, in recent months.  I wonder if that is related.

All in all, my moods have been really good recently, without any drugs.  I didn't think about that being related to the Metafolin. 

How would Leucovorin be different, I wonder?

The last time I had the Health Diagnostics test done, it seemed to suggest that my activated folate measures were at the low end of what they called normal but that I was still deficient in B12.  It's hard for people with CFS to get it to look totally normal, from what I've heard Rich and other people who know something about the test say.

Thanks for starting this thread.

Best, Lisa

JT1024

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2011, 05:11:34 AM »
Karin,

Thanks for posting all this!

I've had been talking metafolin for a few years but only the Solgar 800 mcg tablets.  I recently ran out of it and I've noticed a huge difference in my mental clarity. When I started reading this thread and saw references to different forms of folic acid, I had to do some research. 

Found this out:

Metafolin:

Metafolin® ((6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid, calcium salt or L-methylfolate) is the pure stable crystalline form of the naturally-occurring predominant form of folate.
Folates are water-soluble B-vitamins, which play a key role in central metabolic pathways. Folates are, for example, needed for cell division or cell repair. Metafolin® is L-methylfolate, the body's preferred form of folate. Metafolin® is directly usable by the human organism, directly involved in lowering homocysteine blood levels, and the only form of folate able to cross the blood-brain barrier.

Metafolin® - invented by nature, optimized by Merck & Cie, Switzerland.



Deplin

Deplin® works through a natural process in the brain to regulate all three monoamine neurotransmitters associated with mood by providing the increased dietary requirements for folate. L-methylfolate is needed by depressed patients with suboptimal folate to regulate the synthesis of monoamines (serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine) and known as a trimonoamine modulator (TMM). By managing trimonoamine neurotransmitter synthesis, L-methylfolate, when taken with antidepressants, improves benefits.

Folic acid is a man-made product that needs to be broken down by the body through a lengthy 4-step process. Folate that comes from your diet (e.g green vegetables) needs to undergo a 3-step transformation.  Deplin® is able to be used immediately upon absorption.



Over one half of the general population is compromised in its ability to break down folic acid into L-methylfolate (MTHFR C->T polymorphs) and is even higher in people who suffer from depression.12, 13  Deplin® is unaffected by this common impairment in the body's ability to break down folic acid.  One Deplin® 7.5mg tablet is bioequivalent to taking sixty-six 800 mcg folic acid pills.  Deplin® (L-methylfolate) is an orally administered medical food for use only under medical supervision for the dietary management of suboptimal folate levels in depressed patients.



Leucovorin

Leucovorin is a reduced form of folic acid, which is readily converted to other reduced folic acid derivatives (e.g., tetrahydrofolate). Because it does not require reduction by dihydrofolate reductase as does folic acid, leucovorin is not affected by blockage of this enzyme by folic acid antagonists (dihydrofolate reductase inhibitors). This allows purine and thymidine synthesis, and thus DNA, RNA, and protein synthesis, to occur.

When researching this drug, I became aware that it is mostly used in conjunction with cancer treatment.  I've attached a publication that may not seem applicable but it popped up in the Mednar search engine. Two things caught my attention: 1) Garth Nicolson is one of the authors and 2) the post cancer treatment fatigue has many similarities to ME/CFS. 

I'm not sure if all forms of Leucovorin are in short supply but it has become apparent that oncologists are scrambling - demand is greater than the available supply. 

From: http://www.crdnetwork.org/blog/tag/leucovorin/

PARENT COMMENTS ON REUTERS REPORT – U.S. cancer drugs shortage has doctors scrambling
June 8, 2011 by nboice   

We were forwarded this editorial by one of our Advisory Board Members, and a parent of identical twins suffering from a rare disease with no current cure.  This family has been spending months getting treatments by a physician who also treats children with cancer.  Our board member was outraged by this article, especially after spending time with many families with children diagnosed with various cancers.   Cancer is unique to each individual and therefore IS a rare disease.

The problem this parent states is that this IS all about $$$ and not about saving lives, that the system is really BROKEN.  We need to support these families because they are part of our rare disease community!!  What do you think?  Read below, pass it on.  Let’s take a stand on this!!!  If treatments exist, they need to in the hands of physicians and helping save lives – isn’t that what it should really be about?

First they Ignore you , then they Laugh at you , then they Attack you , then you WIN!!!

Mahatma Gandhi

JT1024

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Re: Evidence suggesting Cerebral Folate Deficiency in ME/CFS
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2011, 05:25:27 AM »
Now I have to keep track of two threads!

I just posted on the one Karin started. So much to research, so little time.   :(  Now if I can get my brain functioning and be less fatigued (possibly using Deplin and NT Factor).  That's my plan now.

~ JT
First they Ignore you , then they Laugh at you , then they Attack you , then you WIN!!!

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Karin

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2011, 02:00:59 PM »

I'm not sure if all forms of Leucovorin are in short supply but it has become apparent that oncologists are scrambling - demand is greater than the available supply. 



There is no shortage currently, but there was in the past. By the way, Leucovorin is available generic, I pay $10.00/month for it with my crappy insurance. I guess if Leucovorin finds applications for CFS as well, the demand will raise a lot and production will also follow, reducing risks of shortage in the long-term.

By the way, the folate form in Leucovorin is also available OTC in 800mg pills. In the worst case that there is a shortage of leucovorin, I'll take several capsules four times a day.

http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-MegaFolinic-800-mcg-120-Tablets/7735?at=0
http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Folacal-Folate-60-Veggie-Caps/18482?at=0
http://kirkmanlabs.com/ViewProductDetails@Product_ID@230@Product_Group_ID@1.aspx

I also don't think Big Pharma gives a damn about cancer patients dying. All they care is to increase their profits and market shares. Creating shortages will drive the demand up as people start panicking. The same thing happened with the flu shot.

Dr. Yes

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2011, 06:02:58 PM »

Oddly, when I checked my medical records last night I found that I've had an abnormally high blood folate level since the first year or two of getting sick.  Now I'm starting to wonder about pernicious anemia...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 06:08:09 PM by Dr. Yes »
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Inge

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Re: Folate receptor antibodies and cerebral folate deficiency
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2011, 06:29:58 PM »
Unfortunately taking only the smallest amount of methyl folate in the morning makes my insomnia much worse at night and I have to take more sleep meds.

The common folate such as in multi vits and high B complex which I also take in the morning have no such effect.

Can somebody explain why this is so?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 06:32:01 PM by Inge »